Debaltseve Battle Threatens Ukraine Ceasefire Deal - Deputy FM

It's not realistic that there will be a 100 percent ceasefire, especially from the side of the separatists, said Deputy Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko.
The interview with Prystaiko was held on the first day of a new ceasefire agreement in in the conflict in eastern Ukraine between Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian fighting forces. 
On-the-ground journalist reports indicated that fighting had not come to a halt around Debatlseve despite the newly declared ceasefire.
The town of Debaltseve could become another flash-point in the war, similar in scope to the battle for the Donetsk Airport. Debaltseve is a major transportation hub in the Donbas area and, at the time of the interview, was still held by Ukrainian troops.

Prystaiko spoke with Hromadske International's Sunday Show hosts Ian Bateson and Nataliya Gumenyuk on February 15, 2015.

Here's the full trascript of this converstation:

PRYSTAIKO: My understanding is that a 100 percent ceasefire is a good thing to have but unfortunately it is not always happening. It’s not realistic to expect that everybody especially those groups of separatists, whatever the name they will find for them, will follow the line which was told by Russia. There are some wild groups.

At the same time we hope that it will hold together for at least another two days so that we will start to withdraw the heavy weapons. That’s what the two leaders agreed actually upon. So after two days of ceasefire we will start to move the heavy artillery systems and we’re observing some cases. I’m pretty sad about these casualties we have, especially in Debaltseve. We just you know, the leaders talked to each other over telephone and agreed that all parties should stick to the agreed ceasefire and we hope that everybody will here because out military are not returning their fire but they understand that, you know, there are some limits for this. If they are fired upon, they will have to.

President Poroshenko just talked over the telephone with all three leaders, the same people he met a couple of days ago in Minsk.

ANCHOR: So to President Putin? Or?

PRYSTAIKO: Yes, Putin, Merkel and Hollande. And everybody told yes that’s what we agreed upon, that’s what we’re having. And if you read the Russian press secretary, Mr Pskov, he supported the same thing. He made it public that the leaders are pushing for the ceasefire and they expect that the ceasefire will be respected.

ANCHOR: Including in Debaltseve?

PRYSTAIKO: Absolutely. Everywhere. Debaltseve is included. The word Debaltseve is included in his press statement. So it should be 100 percent clear for everybody, that Debaltseve is the part which is on the Ukrainian side and is not to be fired upon.

ANCHOR: Just to fill in our viewers, there had been a statement from Zakharchenko, on the separatist leaders, where he had said Debaltseve was separate. The separatists claim that they’ve surrounded it. The Ukrainians have said no, we are able to bring in equipment, we are able to get people out. And their argument has been, you know, we control this territory. This is an island within it. Therefore the ceasfire doesn’t cover that. But from what you’re saying, there’s international that it’s covered by the ceasefire.

PRYSTAIKO:  I have to remind that it’s not about who’s controlling what, although they are not controlling Debaltseve. The line is chartered in Minsk in the 19 th September so that’s the line. Debaltseve is on our side, whatever they are trying to tell anyone, that’s what they are doing for the last two days after Minsk. They were trying to get as much as possible before they have to stop shooting. Thus all the attacks, all the exhilarated attacks were aimed and this particular target.  To get as much, to grab. You know they already grabbed almost 600 km after the line in Minsk was agreed upon.

ANCHOR: Well I mean this is the interesting fact because Poroshenko’s statement that we listened to he was saying they wanted an immediate ceasefire which is not what Minisk set up. It set up a ceasefire three days later which many people as you mentioned said created an incentive for a land grab for kind of desperate military moves to change that, to try and control areas. My question is, you know, after the other ceasefire, even for the moments when it did function more or less. There was continual fighting around the Donetsk airport which separatists said was too close to their territory which isn’t covered. Is there potential for Debaltseve to be a new Donetsk airport, where fighting will continue?

There is a possibility for this and you Debaltseve is probably as important strategically as Donetsk airport. There is maybe Mariupol which is probably another one, another point on the map which is

ANCHOR: Debaltseve because of the train links, is that correct?

PRYSTAIKO: That’s one the biggest train hubs in Europe and it is very important to have for both sides. We still believe that everything is our territory but they believe that they have to have the airport, Debaltseve and Mariupol. That’s why actually the attacks were targeted on both, on Debaltseve and Mariupol. But in Mariupol our forces were ready to see it and counter attack it. Now we have in Debaltseve the most heated point.

ANCHOR: I see, and to ask a question there: For many Ukrainian there has been a lot of frustration with this peace arrangement and some people have asked…in Minsk this most recent agreement does not differ from substantially from the first that was signed in Minsk back in September. Is this a bad peace arrangement? Has Ukraine gotten anything from it?

PRYSTAIKO: I wouldn’t call it Minsk 2.0 as you call it in your announcement. It’s not even 1.1. That’s the process we started in Minsk on 5 th September. It was a political agreement. There were lines and dots on the map which will allow to see where this action is going. This one is a sort of political declaration of repeating the same position but at the same time, it’s the first time when the leaders, including Mr. Putin who was very important at this moment to tell “Yes, I recognise this deal.” Because previously, you remember, it was signed by this trilateral group only. This time it’s signed by leaders of the government. By endorsing the agreement.

ANCHOR: What has been signed? Because from what we understand there are the complex of measures and was any document signed by the leaders of the states?

PRYSTAIKO: That’s the very good diplomatic question. It’s a difficult process because what we are now observing is the process when trilateral groups, so-called trilateral groups is talking and agreeing upon some things. And this document which we discuss and today which we measure the package of measures is signed by five signatures. And they are of representatives of trilateral group. Leaders themselves, they endorsed this deal by telling that we respect and we stay behind this deal. And with our authority we push these sides to respect and follow it.

ANCHOR: We looked a bit into history and have mentioned that even at the end of the last century there were no cases where the leaders of the state were negotiating for so long. Neither in Tehran. You know, there were more breaks. So why the leaders of the states had to do that? Does it mean that there is no way to negotiate or to make any deal on any other level?

PRYSTAIKO: We’ve been doing it for quite a long time. And the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was trying to organise this deal before the leaders have to sit at the table. But let’s be frank, Russia is sitting behind it. We can’t resolve it by talking to people in Donetsk only. Russia has to stop supplying the weapons and people and everything over the border and secure the border because it’s a border between Ukraine and Russia. It’s not some distant country. And Germany and France are guarantors of this deal.

ANCHOR: So explain us why it had taken so long? Why so many hours were necessary and what were the Russian demands? What were Putin’s demands?

PRYSTAIKO: So many hours, we should count them in days because what we’ve seen on TV, what we’ve seen only the leaders states to come to this huge palace in Minsk and finalise the deal but even this finalisation part took almost 14 hours to finish. I have to tell you that I was seeing the leaders talking. I was in the same room trying to help them to get to this point. But our teams were working for three days in a row before, trying to prepare this deal. And the leaders are supposed just to come sign and put this signatures…

ANCHOR: That’s what we’re asking about because I mean this to a certain extent…It seems like a breakdown of the normal interaction between states. You don’t usually have the heads of state meeting to negotiate themselves. They fly in, they’re busy, they sign things and kind of like rock stars they fly out and other people handle it. But it’s interesting that it precedes on this level. What I want to ask you about after we show a brief video is about the general atmosphere because we have this video that I wanted to bring up now of President Poroshenko speaking to President Lukashenko of Belarus where he is talking about this is a dirty and unfair game. So if we bring that up, I just want to show that to our viewers. It went viral earlier this week but just to give an indication of what some of the mood was there.

ANCHOR: What was the atmosphere with your colleagues like there? Were you able to speak to people from the Russian side? What is the mood?

PRYSTAIKO: Most of diplomats would comment on this clip like “two people looking like President Poroshenko and President Lukashenko were speaking about the war, it sounds like their voices of Lukashenko and Poroshenko.”. I’m just kidding. It’s true that’s what’s happening and your colleagues at least were covering it extensively and bringing this truth. I have to tell you that we are trying to do it behind closed doors on purpose because the negotiations themselves are so touchy, so sensitive. And replying on what you just asked why it took so long because I believe that the major point is that Russia has to recognise to everyone and themselves first, to their population, that they are actually fighting a war. Each and every time we are coming to something like, let’s close down the border – they say “so do it”, and we say well we can’t do it without you because you are supplying . They say “We? We are not there” and thus each and every time that’s if you remember in Brisbane, Prime Minister of Canada told Putin “Get out of Ukraine.” And the answer of Putin was “I can’t get out of Ukraine, I’m not there.” So it’s the point of principal, when we reach this understanding and Russia will tell “Yes, we are there.” everything will be much easier.

ANCHOR: Have you reached it to some extent or to which extent you have reached that kind of understanding when you were talking about?

PRYSTAIKO: As Mr. Lukashenko just said “everybody knows that”. The Germans, the French, Europe, the United States, Austrailia. Everybody knows that Russians are fighting on our…and supplying all this expensive heavy artillery and everything. What we are trying to persuade to give the leader of Russia a way he will tell his own people : “Yes, I am actually fighting.”. And why I believe it is possible is because he did it in Crimea. Remember he was telling “No we are not in Crimea.” Then a couple of months later “Yes, there were our soldiers in Crimea doing this.”.

ANCHOR: Well some of that comes down to trust and communication…

PRYSTAIKO: It’s a very good point because that’s what I believe completely showing the whole thing, the very core of the problem. I was there and I was proud to negotiate this particular point and I can reveal this secret and I believe that it is the only one I can reveal for now. They were trying to put in this particular item that everybody detained should be exchange for all principals, but everybody detained on the territory of Ukraine. I told no, no, it’s not only the territory of Ukraine – everybody detained in connection with what is going on in Ukraine, meaning that Savchenko is also covered that took enormous time to get there. They understood what I am trying to do and I knew what I am doing.

ANCHOR: You made that clear in Minsk

PRYSTAIKO: Not me personally. I was just on the tip of effort but it was our idea and it took us hours to negotiate with the negotiation team that we are not talking only about people in Ukraine in the territory right now. We are talking about everybody who was detained by….by…

ANCHOR: So was it in agreement?

PRYSTAIKO: It is an agreement that everybody detained should be exchanged.

ANCHOR: So what will happen next because Nadiya is on hunger strike. She will remain in custody till March, till May at least but how will you raise this issue?

PRYSTAIKO: We now will be fighting, showing them that guys whatever you believe in, you signed it. Please follow what you already approved.

ANCHOR: And coming back to particularly the deal, one of the point which probably some experts say is the most important, is the sealing of the border which will take place just right after the election which may take till autumn. It will take a lot of time so my question is why can’t it be done in a process, by transmission in a particular periods? Why wait so long?

PRYSTAIKO: Very good point, because we did it because the way you said. We told immediate control over the border because it is even in the Minsk documents. If you read it, there is the security sort of corridor on the Russian/Ukrainian border monitored by OSCE. It is in 19 th September and we told them, please people we already have it. We’ve already agreed upon it. Let OSCE go there and monitor it. We wanted it to have it. They told “No, no, no…OSCE is not good and Russia or Ukrainian border guards it’s not good” because they believe that people on east so afraid of everything that they will be killed tomorrow or slaughtered as the pigs even by unarmed OSCE. We told them that’s completely…How can we find anything else? The OSCE is waiting and you agreed that they will come and see what’s going on on the border.

We believe what is the things we are needed right away is still need support, political support. We need economic sanctions. Just like in the situation you just described, what would you do if they won’t respect? Like this thing with Savchenko. We want Europe and the world to understand is the mechanism to make Russians to respect the deal we already have. At the same time we the defensive equipment and military equipment so we will be able to eradicate things like in Debaltseve, to be able to protect our people and make the ceasefire work. Everything else, financial help, reforms, everything which will allow us. We are bleeding not just with blood but money, with finances as well.